[PK] Hell Valley

Discussion in 'Map Submissions' started by Cheez, Mar 14, 2018.

  1. Cheez

    Cheez Admin Senpai Staff Member Administrator

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    IGN: Cheezi

    Minigame: Parkour

    Description of the map: This is a very lightly detailed map with more time and effort being spent into the jumps themselves. This map was built with the intention of being very difficult to complete, due to this it looks, overall, pretty meh.
    This map would be a "Hard" parkour, as it contains multiple different types of difficult jumps (plus checkpoint placement) which would take users awhile (especially speedrunners).
    All troublesome "shortcut" areas have been filled with barriers, so good luck finding any kek
    All jumps have been tested and are possible

    (Start front view)

    (Second Checkpoint)

    (Final Area)

    (Outside visual)


    (Starting point) 2018-03-14_23.33.48.png
    (First checkpoint)
    (Second Checkpoint)
    (Third Checkpoint)
    Whats new!
    -Added more details ("Spiritual vents" have been added to main areas)
    -Updated the walls (Play area is now smaller and crystals look better)
    -Updated the first few jumps to be more doable
    -Just added fences and stairs to the bottoms of some platforms
    -Removed some barriers so more alternative routes may now be possible (For speedrunners)
    Credits to: Cheezi, @Progtrash, @PinkSeason

    If you are interesting in playing this yourself just PM me anywhere
    (Checkpoint signs will be removed ofc)

    Added updates
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
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  2. Evence

    Evence Former Mοd Donator

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    Tested it myself, I think it would be a great challenge!

    Got my vote!
    stempunk and Ryva like this.
  3. Darkstorm77

    Darkstorm77 Moderator | Mental Instability's Manifestation Staff Member Moderator

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    A few notes for what I can actually see:

    -You still should put at least a bit more effort into the design
    (This is really hard with wool-centered builds, so just adding block variation won't work that well; the best thing to do in this type of situation, in my opinion, is to focus on extreme depth for design, but that's pretty hard also).

    -Referring to this:

    After someone finishes a parkour map once, they don't play to finish it again. They play to get a better time. If you are referring to hopping on walls, this is 100% fine- but the entire point of speedrunning is finding the most efficient shortcuts and routes. If it's entirely made of platforms like I can see from this, I suggest taking advice from the accepted map, Confusion. The block jumps look similar- and there are at least six (minor) shortcuts.

    -It is important to take into account the playing factor- what it is like to play. The start reminds me of a mirror of Impossible, which is pretty negative because even this has less room to jump and most people give up on Impossible after the 2nd jump. The end might have a decent area for causing variation in times, but everything else intermediate looks pretty straightforward. When maps have more than a 2x2 platform, sprinting and jumping may be optimized in different ways. When it comes to the same or less, you only have one option. This goes back to that philosophy of shortcuts; they can help fix this.
    This is a bit confusing, so here is an example of Squatman99 speedrunning Impossible.

    Note that Squatman99 jumps twice on the first platform (3x3), but once on the next (2x2). Jumping while sprinting is faster than just sprinting, so any opportunity increases run speed. You can also notice that Squatman99 pulls off a second jump on a 2x2 platform, but that only works because of the certain positioning (height change) of the platform.

    When there are maps with varied terrain to parkour across, opportunities like these are taken advantage of. Without it, shortcuts are pretty much necessary.

    Bit of a synopsis:

    The two main parts of a map are the gameplay aspect, and the design aspect. The design aspect can be helped by builders, of course, but they probably won't be going out of their way that much if the gameplay isn't that enjoyable either.

    If you want different input from me, please post more pictures of what happens in between or a video of someone running through it so we can judge if we would like to play it also.
  4. Cheez

    Cheez Admin Senpai Staff Member Administrator

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    This map had no shortcut areas other then the ones which are found on the walls (due to spots sticking out, ect), and some of these areas would have allowed users to skip multiple jumps (in other maps areas like this were covered up anyways). Other then that there was really nothing else someone could shortcut off of, unless someone finds a new area.

    To add on: This map has multiple areas in which sprinting through is either required or can be done easily, so speedrunning is still possible, just without the use of things like wall runs.

    However, this is not a mirror of "Impossible" (at least not what I was aiming for). While some of the jumps may resemble it, this parkour is supposed to be extremely difficult, people who would walk away from it after the second jump are people who probably wouldn't make it through the rest anyways. I dont want people to cheese their way out of the map and I want them to actually play it.

    The screenshots i took don't really capture the map *super* well as it looks more compressed, I'll post more eventually. The design in parkour maps overall isn't a necessity, as some which are currently on the server don't contain any professional decoration but yet are still good maps (this is what I was aiming for). I feel like trying to force in more design would either: Create a jump exploit and or ruin the overall feel I was trying to capture with a "Spiritual tunnel".

    I was able to pass this map pretty easily after a few attempts at it, since overall there are only a few jumps which would be hairpulling, and the rest are more balanced .
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
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  5. Haruld

    Haruld Resigned Donator

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    Amazing, going in my map submission suggestion thread!
    Cheez and Evence like this.
  6. stempunk

    stempunk #1 Premium Donator

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    Looks good! I’d love to see it in parkour :)
  7. ZeusV

    ZeusV Former Moderator Donator

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    Awesome job!
    Evence likes this.
  8. Heatdude Da Waffle

    Heatdude Da Waffle Ex Moⅾ+ | Amateur Builder Donator

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    I guess this is as good a time as ever to put this out there; I don't like pointlessly hard parkours. What does that mean? What counts as "pointlessly" hard? Let me explain.

    I don't have anything against hard parkours, having made some of my maps (like Laboratory 2) as hard as I could without making it unfun. I'm aware that Lab 2 isn't the hardest map on J&H, and it doesn't bother me that there are harder maps but what bothers me is why they're harder- they're harder just for the point of being hard. "But Heatdude, doesn't that just mean it's a challenge?" Somewhat, but let me compare it to something else.
    (Sorry if you don't care for shoes but it's the best analogy I could come up with) When a new pair of Jordan's drop they can cost around $200, sometimes even more. That's not too cheap, but hey, they're good shoes- maybe not to everybody but to a lot of people they are. Now here come the ZO2's, shoes that, although they aren't horrible, cost $500 to $700 for no real reason. They're not worth $300 to $500 more than the Jordan's in any way, so why are they being sold for so much more? There is no reason- they're expensive just for the point of being expensive- they're pointlessly expensive in the same way that some maps on J&H are pointlessly hard. Make sense?

    Now, just like the shoes, I'm not saying maps like Impossible are trash- I don't think that- but rather that they're hard without a huge reward other than bragging rights. On the other end of maps you have maps like my Kingdom Ruins (using my own map as an example because I don't want to be rude to other people) which isn't that pretty but is also a rather easy parkour- it makes sense. It might be just me but I believe that if a map is going to be incredibly hard it better look incredibly good. I want to feel rewarded for playing the map and I sure don't want to spend hours and hours trying to beat a map that I can't stand to look at.

    Now that I have that out of the way, I want to take a step back and address this map. I hope I haven't come off too harsh, I just wanted to get my point out there because it does apply to this map. Your map isn't horrendous but, as you said yourself, it "looks, overall, pretty meh." There's a reason why for months Impossible had top 10 times that were minutes long- nobody was running it. There might be people who just want the challenge but I personally find it hard to dedicate myself to completing something hard that's also just boring to look at. If the map looked nicer it'd have my full support.

    TL;DR- I feel being hard but boring to look at makes it a poor map, but if you put more time into the way the map looked I think it'd be great.

    Hope that all makes sense, and I wish you the best of luck. (:
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  9. Cheez

    Cheez Admin Senpai Staff Member Administrator

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    Like I stated previously: I feel extra design will ruin the feel I was trying to capture.
    My original design in mind was to make it feel like a pathway with more or less "spiritual" bricks building you a path out. I'm not sure what else I could make out of a black tunnel way but anyways.. I know I said this map is extremely difficult in my initial post but corrected myself in the second one. This map only has a few hairpulling jumps and the rest are pretty classic things which people could speedrun over.

    This map does have more detail towards the end (Example with the area jerry is standing in), but it's difficult to add more detail in a map that had the intention of being lightly detailed in the first place.

    "It might be just me but I believe that if a map is going to be incredibly hard it better look incredibly good"
    To compare my map to some others: "RainbowRush" is a map which is indeed nice, but is very basic. Now I'm not saying it's an ugly map, it's a very cool concept and was a take on a previous one for the Hard maps. But personally it isn't the best looking map in the world, and is also very difficult to pass, even the first jump. Another example of a map with little design but a good concept is JewelRun. While neither of these maps were my inspiration to build this it was along the lines of the current situation.

    However, I will edit the beginning of the map (the jumps) and will try to find areas to add some form of detail.

    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
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  10. tobiyo254

    tobiyo254 Donator

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    im no expert in parkour design but this thing needs to be added it looks a masterpiece